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 Post subject: PVE v PVP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:28 pm 
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This article over on Wow Insidertouches on an issue that I find increasingly irritating -- the balance of PVP and PVE in WoW. It's just the spur I need to write about it.

I'm supposedly in a PVE guild, yet most of my fellow adventurers would rather grind honour for gear than badges -- and when you look at the gear, can you blame them? But I want to run heroics and it makes finding a group impossible. And then there are the usual issues around balancing classes in PVP that really shouldn't interest me, except they usually have consequences for my PVE game: either a change I don't want is introduced or a change I do want isn't, all for the sake of PVP balance.

I guess these issues also work in reverse. Are you a PVP player with PVE irritants? Should Blizzard continue to balance the game or give up and force a PVE/PVP split?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:40 pm 
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I'd argue that basing any kind of reflection on a wowinsider post written by Mike QQ Shramm is a bad ground for discussion.

Yes, balancing may have irritating side-effects. But they are often over-played by the Shramms of this world who need to lead their pretend news site by example and keep up with a posting quota - While the two Life (bloom and tap) nerfs (which are only on the PTR for the time being, and still subject to reversal) are examples of PvP balance affecting PvE, many many PvP changes are actually limited to PvP only, whether it is the changes to CC mechanisms or drinking, for example.

Split Arenas from WoW? Considering the 14+ months of development which has gone into making the whole game more casual-friendly, of which arenas are a part, it's never gonna happen, or at least highly unlikely.

As for your heroics problem, you might not have enough willing guildies but I bet you aren't the only player who wants to run heroics on your server. Fear of noob and undergeared PUGs is what is killing heroics since the keys have been available at honoured.
Why don't you borrow the PvP concept of Preforms and recruit 4 people on your server forums for heroics, as a fixed group? Set a time outside of your raiding schedule, put minimal gear requirements up just like a BG preform requires 200 resilience, and see where it leads you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:15 pm 
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I have to agree with Gwaendar on this one. I don't know what kind of progression your guild has, but if you browse most class forums, when people ask how to start raiding, they are told to grind out some PvP gear, as it is a great stepping stone. I know for Hunters, the Season 3 Axe is one of the best stat sticks you can get, and the S1 bow is a perfect filler for any Hunter until they can pick up a Sunfury or a WSSR.

But anyone who wants to get gear and doesn't want to run heroics, especially with the plethora of incredible badge loot coming out in 2.4 is craaaaaazy.

And way too many changes are blamed on PvP when it's not necessarily the case. For example, I will mention Hunters again.

The removal of the deadzone, at face value, looks like it was for pure PvP purposes. But take a look at many of the fights that Blizzard has put in recently. There are often times Hunters may not be able to get even 8 yards. Fights in Karazhan, Zul'Aman and the such. Progressing into 25 man raids, not having that 8 yard zone allows the Hunter to be much more fluid on how they can adapt.

And while the purging Arcane Shot is nice (I frequently am purging buffs off PvE mobs) it wasn't a change any Hunter asked for.

You can look at this with a lot of classes. Sure, some may indeed be for PvP, but individuals need to move out of the mindset that this game is all about PvE gear. It was pre-BC. My Warrior farmed MC forever until Blizzard decided to put in BWL. Than I did that, AQ, and Naxx. And after those years of farming PvE content, I welcome the fact Blizzard has given people opportunities to gear up that doesn't require the time and manpower 25 man raids do.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:14 pm 
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I'm in favour of a split. It worked in Guild Wars. Arena only realms wouldn't be something I'm opposed to.

A system akin to BF1942 or CoD 4 where you can unlock different pieces of equipment might be effective here. Those same arena points you hold dear can be used to 'unlock' weapons. The only characters you can play are ones that you have hit level 70 with on some PvE realm somewhere. That character can then be copied over and outfitted with whatever you have available.

Just some food for thought. Caffeine does wonders for me in the morning.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:10 pm 
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Matticus wrote:
The only characters you can play are ones that you have hit level 70 with on some PvE realm somewhere.


Good grief, why? If you want a proper split, Warcraft Arena should mandate playing WoW at all, that makes no sense. In fact, there wouldn't even be a point in levels at all in a separate game. I fail to see the point of a split but if there were to be one, limiting players to their WoW mains is a good way to make a horrible idea even worse, no offense meant.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Gwaendar wrote:
Matticus wrote:
The only characters you can play are ones that you have hit level 70 with on some PvE realm somewhere.


Good grief, why? If you want a proper split, Warcraft Arena should mandate playing WoW at all, that makes no sense. In fact, there wouldn't even be a point in levels at all in a separate game. I fail to see the point of a split but if there were to be one, limiting players to their WoW mains is a good way to make a horrible idea even worse, no offense meant.


None take, don't worry about it ^^.

Eh, I suppose it'd be nice to force players to learn a class so to speak by going from 1-70. Gives new guys a reason to play through the game or something. Increases replay value. Call it whatever you like.

But in any case, you're absolutely right. All of that I said up there is a silly idea and would never work. I'm not a game designer nor will I ever be.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:44 am 
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You never know what life has in store :) But I'm in the same boat 8)

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